between keeping good people in the system through adequate compensation and not making
compensation too high.
Speaker Brown said that he felt that legislators are making choices based on
compensation because they get paid to attend meetings at the Capitol but not when they meet
with constituents in their districts. Mr. Storey noted that there is a lot of legislative work that
does not show up on the legislative calendar. Rep. Goodfellow asked if legislators are paid to
attend NCSL conferences. Mr. Storey said that most states compensate legislators for
attendance, but he has not done studies on this area. Sen. Blackham suggested a study of the
demands placed on legislators. Mr. Storey said that it would interesting to know if compensation
prohibits some professions from serving in the Legislature. Chair Harward said he felt the
shortness of the general session aids encourages citizens from all walks of life to serve in the
state legislature.
Rep. Olsen asked if the states who pay more get better laws or management. Mr. Storey
said that there may be a level at which government suffers due to a lack of compensation.
Speaker Brown asked the members of the Compensation Commission for a report outlining how
the annualized salary of $25,000 is determined. Mr. Mark Bedel, Governor's Office of Planning
and Budget, staff for the Commission, said that if the compensation amount paid now on a daily
basis was annualized, the resulting amount would equal $25,000. It was noted that retirement is
part of the compensation. Mr. Duane A. Frandsen, Compensation Commission, said that the
retirement package is included in their recommendation. He added that there is a strong feeling
of volunteerism in Utah and that influences the compensation process. Speaker Brown asked if
the Compensation Commission would like to have their recommendations automatically
adopted. Mr. Frandsen said he would not change the process while Mr. Thackeray said he felt
making it automatic would be a smoother process.
Rep. Goodfellow said public perception is that the state legislators make large amounts of
money. Sen. Blackham said that the compensation he receives does not adequately make up for
the business he loses. He noted the time and travel demands on rural legislators are much greater
than the Wasatch Front legislators. Rep. Harward said that leadership members and senators
have greater demands because there are fewer of them.
Chair Harward said that there will be a future meeting on this issue and invited the
Legislative Compensation Commission to be involved in the discussion.
4. Length of Legislative Sessions -- Mr. Smith distributed two handouts summarizing information on the legislative session length. He reviewed the material with the committee
noting that session days are counted either as legislative or calendar days. He explained that
many states have organizational sessions. He said Utah has one of the shortest session lengths.
He added that some states can lengthen their session by a majority vote of their members. He
said that some states limit session length by limiting compensation. Mr. Smith said that some
sessions have no constitutional or statutory limits on days. He also discussed alternating session
lengths.
Rep. Olsen asked if the idea of calling an information session before calling a special
session has been discussed. The answer was yes but there are limitations in even-numbered
years because of charitable activities the legislators participate in that could be a conflict of
interest by qualifying as campaign contributions taken during a legislative session. Rep. Tanner
said that the number of days outside of the 45-day session needs to be reviewed to see if the work
is being done efficiently.
Speaker Brown said that he would like to know if productivity is increased by some of
the other processes. He felt a list of criteria is needed for a comparison of efficiency. He said
that he would like to know if legislators feel that they are well informed on the bills they receive.
He also wanted to know how the number of bills passed is influenced by different session
lengths. Rep. Harward said he would like to know the number of bills reviewed through public
process and how many public hearings are held per bill. Mr. Storey said the number of
legislators also affects specialization. Sen. Evans said that he wondered if the length of the
session makes the agencies more accountable to the process. He noted that real growth has not
occurred in the legislative branch as it has in the executive branch.
Chair Harward said that further information will be distributed before a future meeting in
which there will be a discussion on these issues. He asked members to inform staff of their
questions and concerns about the quality of the session as well as the length of session so that
information could be provided.
Rep. Goodfellow suggested that individual legislators' staff assistance is more available
in some other states than in Utah and wondered what changes could be made to the length of
session to increase the quality of the service for the public. Sen. Blackham said that he felt that
he needed a block of time during the session to meet with constituents. Rep. Olsen suggested
that he needed time to meet with other legislators. Speaker Brown noted that having legislative
days in a larger calendar period would allow time outs for discussion. Rep. Davis said the final
days have more pressure and wondered how other states handle that pressure. Mr. Storey said
that this is a common problem. Speaker Brown said there are some issues that will always wait
until the last minute. However, if the process is managed properly with calendaring to permit
public input, the process is smoother. Rep. Davis said that proper management would be his
hope as well, but he has concerns that it works in practice. It was agreed that other states'
processes could provide information. Chair Harward asked that budget and staff requirements
also be reviewed.
5. Legislative Ethics -- Mr. Fellows distributed a packet of information. He said that, after reviewing those states that govern gifts by regulation, he found no consistent process. He added
Utah does not regulate as comprehensively as other states. He said there are two approaches to
regulating gifts: 1) the inclusive approach which attempts to make a narrow definition of gifts;
and 2) the exclusive approach which is a broad definition of gifts with a laundry list of
exclusions.
Mr. Fellows said there are about 14 things that are generally considered gifts including
payments, investments, loans, tangible goods, real property, promise of employment, art,
collectibles, transportation, honoraria, services, rebates, entertainment, and hospitality. He also
outlined the list of things that are not considered gifts. He noted there is a lot of ambiguity in
this area.
Mr. Fellows discussed statutory approaches that restrict gifts by defining "gift" and then
providing extensive exclusions; 1) define gift broadly to mean "anything of value" and develop
extensive inclusions ; 2) define gifts broadly and developing an exclusion list; 3) gifts that are acceptable under monetary limitations with few exclusions; and 4) a constitutional prohibition of
gifts governed by bribery statutes.
Mr. Fellows outlined statutes addressing gifts of tickets to sporting events or other
entertainments. He also provided two charts outlining the inclusions and exclusions connected
with the definition of gifts. Rep. Olsen said he would like to consider gifts to the executive
branch as well as the legislative branch.
Chair Harward asked for further direction from the committee before this issue is
calendared for discussion. Rep. Olsen asked about restrictions of other governmental entities
including cities and counties. He also asked what happens to gifts presented to the governor by
other states and countries. Rep. Tanner requested that the committee study the regulation of intangible gifts and restrict them to $50. Chair Harward requested that staff provide the
committee with copies of the statutes concerning bribery, gifts, executive ethics, and legislative
ethics. Speaker Brown requested options for the definition of "gifts." Mr. Fellows
acknowledged the efforts of Ms. Nina Norton, paralegal in the Office of Legislative Research
and General Counsel, in researching this issue and publicly thanked her.
6. Other Committee Business
Consideration of an Additional Study Item -- Senator Blackham distributed a handout outlining proposed process changes for the legislative budget process. He said that the purpose
of the proposal is to more efficiently accomplish the budgeting process with less stress to
legislators. The governor would make the budget proposal to the Executive Appropriations
Committee. There would be time for study and work meetings to give additional attention to
areas that need it. Then the subcommittees could make recommendations, hold hearings with
public comments, and complete consideration and preparation of the final legislation.
MOTION: Sen. Blackham moved to add the budget process to the committee's study list. The motion passed with Sen. Evans voting against.
Budget Review Options -- Legislative Auditor Wayne Welsh recommended a review of the Department of Corrections because of operating and building costs, the Division of Wildlife
Resources since it has not be audited since 1985, and the Division of Purchasing involving the
service contract bidding process to determine whether the contracts are sufficiently well defined,
sufficiently specific to protect the state's interests, and whether the contracts are enforceable.
Sen. Evans declared a conflict of interest in the area of the Department of Corrections.
MOTION: Rep. Olsen moved to approve the recommendation to review of the Department of Corrections in 1998, the Division of Wildlife in 1999, and the Division of
Purchasing in the year 2000 for consideration by the Executive Appropriations Committee. The
motion passed unanimously.
Next Meeting - Chair said that the next meeting would be held on Tuesday, August 19, 1997.
8. Adjournment--
MOTION: Sen. Evans moved that the meeting be adjourned at 11:50 a.m. The motion passed unanimously.
Minutes reported by Karen E. Mecham