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MINUTES OF THE
JUDICIARY INTERIM COMMITTEE

August 19, 1998 - 10:00 a.m. - Room 405 State Capitol



Members Present:
    Rep. A. Lamont Tyler, Chair
    Sen. David L. Buhler
    Sen. Lyle W. Hillyard
    Sen. Robert C. Steiner
    Rep. Patrice M. Arent
    Rep. John B. Arrington
    Rep. Afton B. Bradshaw
     Rep. Keele Johnson
    Rep. Swen C. Nielsen
    Rep. Martin R. Stephens
    Rep. Glenn L. Way
    

Members Excused:
    Rep. Loretta Baca
    Rep. Tammy J. Rowan

Members Absent:
    Sen. Craig L. Taylor, Chair
    Sen. Lane Beattie
    Rep. Katherine M. Bryson
    Rep. J. W. "Bill" Hickman

Staff Present:
    Mr. Jerry D. Howe,
     Research Analyst
    Ms. Esther Chelsea-McCarty,
     Associate General Counsel
    Ms. Beverlee LeCheminant
     Legislative Secretary

     Note:    A list of others present and a copy of materials distributed in the meeting are on file in the         Office of Legislative Research and General Counsel.

1.    Call to Order and Committee Business - Chair Tyler called the meeting to order at 10:12 a.m.

     MOTION: Rep. Arrington moved to approve the minutes of the June 17 and July 15, 1998 meetings. The motion passed unanimously with Rep. Johnson absent for the vote.

2.    Privatization of Social Security Number - Chair Tyler relinquished the chair to Rep. Swenson and then stated that the draft bill provides, unless otherwise required by federal or state law, that state agencies and businesses cannot use the social security number as the primary identifier if the individual requests that a different number be used. An exception is provided, he said, for public and private entities who extend credit.

    Rep. Arrington questioned why a different number cannot be used as an identifier. He indicated that he uses an identification number at his bank which is not his social security number.

    Chair Tyler said that some countries issues a national identification number to identify the person as a citizen of the country. The United States, he said, has long resisted that concept although the social security number is becoming more like that idea.

    Ms. Esther Chelsea-McCarty said that one reason some people object to the use of a social security number as an identification number in private transactions is that it is a universal identifier. When a company or individual is in possession of someone's social security number, she said, the amount of information obtainable is substantial.

    Mr. George Sutton, Utah Association of Financial Services, (UAFS) said that UAFS has serious concerns about the bill relating to compliance and enforcement. He indicated that with regard to compliance, there is no way a financial institution could report a credit history, and if they did, there would trouble with the IRS. Additionally, enforcement provided by the bill is too severe. Mr. Sutton acknowledged that identity theft is a problem, the Legislature needs to provide penalties for theft of one's identity, but the penalties ought to extend to those who have stolen an identity not those who need a social security number for legal business practices.

    Mr. Jim Olsen, President, Food Industry Association, expressed concern that the bill targets Utah retailers with a penalty when a customer refuses to provide a social security number.
    Rep. Tyler questioned how business in other states with similar prohibitions on the collection of social security numbers have been able to cope.

     MOTION: Rep. Tyler moved that the committee move to the next item on the agenda. The motion passed unanimously.

3.    Court Interviews of Children - Rep. Bradshaw reminded the committee of its discussion concerning the clarification of whether or not a judge should be allowed to interview children in visitation and custody cases. She distributed a memorandum showing what other states are doing with respect to this issue.

    Mr. Richard Schwermer, Administrative Office of the Courts, suggested deleting the reference to a presiding judge because the term has a specific meaning under court rules. The judge that should interview is the judge hearing the case, not the presiding judge, he said.

    Mr. Harry Caston, past chair of the Family Law Section, expressed concern that reporting requirements are not included in the legislation. He suggested an amendment to the legislation stating that when a judge interviews children, he should be required to provide a summary of what was said in the interview so a record is preserved for appeal. If no record is kept, then an appeal of the judges decision has no record of why the judge ruled the way he did.

     MOTION: Rep. Stephens moved to pass the "Court Interviews of Children" legislation out as a committee bill.


     SUBSTITUTE MOTION: Rep. Arent moved to pass the legislation "Court Interviews of Children" out as a committee bill with the following amendments: Page 1, Lines 5 and 21, delete the word "presiding" before the word "judge"; on Page 1, Line 21, after the word "judge" delete the words "individually and privately" and add the word "in camera."

    The Substitute Motion passed unanimously. Rep. Stephens was absent for the vote.
    
4.    Other Business - Chair Tyler reminded the committee of the upcoming staff report concerning the recent Supreme Court case of In Re Young which prohibits legislators from serving on the Judicial Conduct Commission and prevents the Speaker and the President from appointing anyone, legislators or non-legislators, to serve on the Judicial Conduct Commission.

    Mr. Jerry Howe, Research Analyst, discussed the implications of the Judicial Conduct Commission issue and said that the Office of Legislative Research and General Counsel is doing research on In Re Young. Mr. Howe also explained that the chairs have had requests for this committee to be briefed on the impeachment power which is the only power remaining in the constitution for legislative oversight of judges.

    Sen. Hillyard said the issue of polygamy is receiving substantial national press. He suggested that the chairs consider time of the agenda to discuss the constitutional provision which forever prohibits polygamy in the state.

    Mr. Howe explained that the state's enabling act contained a prohibition on polygamy which required the state to prohibit polygamy in its constitution.

     MOTION: Sen. Steiner moved that the committee reconsider its action on the "Court Interviews of Children" legislation.

    Sen. Steiner said he would like the committee to reconsider its action because the legislation fails to address any aspect of being able to review what is conducted in camera in private and that means the Appellate Court would not know what took place in the judge's chambers and whether it had anything to do with the judge's final decision. He recommended that staff draft an amendment which would address this issue. He also suggested having the judge write a summary of what took place as part of his findings of fact, or where there is a videotape in usage, it should be wise to make it available to the Appellate Court.

    Mr. Schwermer indicated that this has never been an issue. He suggested that the judiciary would not want to require judges to follow a procedure when conducting in camera interviews.


    Sen. Steiner's motion failed. Voting in the affirmative were Sen. Steiner and Sen. Hillyard. Rep. Stephens was absent for the vote.

5.    Adjournment

    MOTION: Sen. Hillyard moved to adjourn the meeting at 11:55 a.m. The motion passed unanimously with Rep. Stephens absent for the vote.

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